Good Faith Debate: Should Christians Send Their Kids to Public School? (TGC Classic)

Jim Davis

Jim, welcome to TGC good faith debates. These are a series of conversations designed to help you navigate difficult and maybe even polarizing issues in contemporary life and culture. My name is Jim Davis, pastor of Orlando Grace Church, and it is a privilege to be able to be here and moderate these debates. The topic at hand today is the education of our children. This is a very passionate and complex issue, because this involves those that we love most in the world. And it’s complex because there are many different variables based on conviction and context and finances and family dynamics. So I appreciate today that we get to have Jen Wilkin and Dr Jonathan Pennington join us to talk about this very important issue. Jen Wilkin is a Bible teacher and author in Dallas, Texas, mother of five. Dr Pennington is a professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, a pastor and father of six. Thank you so much, both of you for joining us today. Thanks for having me So Jen, we’ll start with you. What is your perspective on this issue?

Jen Wilkin

Well, my perspective is heavily autobiographical. Our kids did go to public school, and not only that, but my family is filled with public educators. My mother taught in the public school system at all levels all of her career. My father served on the school board in Our Hometown. My siblings and I were all public school educated. I have a brother who is an assistant principal at a public high school. I have a brother who was in the inaugural class of Teach for America. He taught a year in Bedford, sty in New York City and a year in rural Arkansas, and ended up with a teaching career in rural Arkansas. Yeah. My sister in law teaches at the middle school in my district right now. My mother in law is a retired teacher. My daughter is a chemistry teacher who’s taught in the public schools, and I have a nephew who’s going to be a history teacher. So there we’re we’re all in on the public schools in our family. And you can imagine that as someone who was in full time, outward facing ministry that was met with a lot of raised eyebrows through the years, especially when you have a larger than average number of kids, people immediately assume that if you were a person of strong religious convictions with a large family, you are either home schooling or doing private school. And we didn’t, and we did choose public school out of conviction. But I always like to make clear up front that we did not have any special considerations in that our kids did not have learning disabilities. There were no special concerns that might have played into that decision for us, and I’m very sensitive to that, not only that, we always lived near excellent schools. So I would never say everyone should choose public school, but I would say that we should try really hard to if at all possible, because we believe in the public school ideal. We believe that education is a right. It’s necessary for human flourishing, it’s good for society. It’s a mark of civilization, that you have an educated citizenry. And so if that is something that you can see, then you would value that you would have quality education for everyone, if at all possible. And we believed that our participation in the public school system was directly related to loving our neighbors. And so if we could opt in at all, then we absolutely wanted to. So we did. We opted in, and I would say that one of the big things that helped us to be able to say yes to the public schools was that we believed that world view came from your home, your world view and your values came from your home. And I think that that’s what everyone believes in the education debate, but I don’t know that the public school parent always gets credit for that perspective. We did not think that it was a simple matter of just sending them off to get educated, and then everything would sort of fall into play. The church would pick up the slack on whatever they needed to get for their Christian worldview. Jeff and I are nerdy people who like to learn, and so our children’s love of learning, in all likelihood, or in fact, I hope, came from the ethos that was in our home, and we knew that that would be a factor in the way that they inhabited a public school space, that if they were in a classroom where that love of learning was not being particularly amplified, that we could pick up The slack at home, we definitely had lots of conversations about everything that they were learning and the social elements as well. But because the education, the quality of education piece, was not a question for us, we knew they would get an excellent learning experience, and we welcomed the social aspect of. It the public schools were an easy yes for us in this space that we were in. So the kids went all the way through public school. Some of the issues that are now more emerged in those spaces were already emerging at that time, and so some of the things that we felt were beneficial was that we knew we had to have conversations early. We did not delay on talking about difficult or controversial subjects, and we knew what was going on with the curriculum as well. We had first hand knowledge of what was going on in those spaces, and we worked hard to make sure that we were up to speed on that. It helped that we had a family member who’s in the district who could help us sort through what was fact and what was fiction, when everything was blowing up like a Facebook discussion group in the community, to sort of sort out what was really going on. But one of the big benefits that came from having children in the public school system, from our perspective, was they had an exposure to such a broad array of kinds of people, so that when we had conversations about something that was going on in the culture, or even the hot button issues right now, like like sexual orientation, gender identity, all of that, those were not just categories that we talked about. Those were people, those were friends. That was an embodied truth, that was someone who sat next to them in class, or it was a teacher. And so we were able to humanize those conversations and and that was really a gift. Not only that, they were around children from different socioeconomic levels, they were around children from different racial communities. They were around special needs children. That’s one of my favorite things about the public schools, is that children with special needs are actually in in with the other children. They have a buddy system to help these kids, and they’re they’re visible in the lives of these kids every day. So they also had exposure to kids whose home situations were very different than theirs, and one of the things about a public school experience is no one is really pretending it’s all right out there. And so our kids knew very early what it meant to be aliens and strangers, and that was something that we’re able to say to them, was something a feeling to welcome, not a feeling to push away. That the more different you feel from the people around you, assuming that those differences are rooted in a Christian conviction, then the more you can know that you are probably being conformed to the image of Christ, and that means being a soft presence, not being necessarily even a loud presence. I do think one of the misconceptions about Christian parents who send children to public school is that we’ve sent them there to be missionaries, to be salt and light. And I crack up about that because the kids were actually involved in a Bible study at the school there in high school that was called salt and light. And I was like, shoot, but, but but the reality was, we sent them there for an education, and we knew that we would have a role as their parents, probably in being salt and light. And we assumed that if they grew into their faith, and did, in fact, you know, become believers and then mature into that, that there would be that influence. But we were not trying to send a second grader into a secular space to share the good news. We we wanted to train our kids into that so that anywhere they went, that became something that was intuitive, but we didn’t. We were not on mission in that sense, in the local school, yeah, they all graduated from the public school system with an overwhelmingly positive experience and with with a world class education, and they went on to go to pub, to a large public university as well after that.

Jen Wilkin

And we look back on it, and I think now, the question that I get most frequently is like, but you wouldn’t do that now, right? Like knowing what you know now? And my answer would be that yes, I would, because I know what our school district is and isn’t teaching, and what I see happening now around this conversation is a great deal of misinformation and fear mongering, some of the things, even in our own district, that parents will say are being taught. I know are not being taught. And what I think is happening is people read an article about something that happened somewhere else, or they hear a story. There’s a lot of hearsay that travels around about what is or isn’t going on. And because we live in a time where fear is something that is leveraged at every turn, it takes root, and they end up making a fear based decision instead of an educated decision. I think there are legitimate things to be concerned about with a public school education, but whether your district is actually the one that is implementing those things or not is something that you should get first hand information on not have heard about from someone else, and I would also just. This urge not to contribute to fear mongering and hearsay if you’re a parent who’s trying to make those decisions. I recently put some information on this perspective up in my stories on Instagram. And I don’t spend enough time on Instagram for the algorithm to feed me a lot of attention. And so when I say that, I got hundreds of DMS in response to what I put up in support of public schools. That is not normal for me, and almost all of them were from Christian teachers in the public schools who said I have been vilified and maligned by my Christian community because I teach in the public schools. And that’s not right. I mean, so I think one of the things I would love to have entered into this conversation is that while I cannot tell you to put your children in public school, and certainly never would, because there are so many factors that are at play that it is important for us to understand that our decision regarding this, and even our demeanor toward this has an impact on our community. It doesn’t just impact our family. The most common phrase I hear thrown out in these conversations is, well, I just need to do what’s best for my family. And I think that’s something that as Christians, we have to push back on. Philippians tells us, each of you should look not just to your own interests, but to the interests of others. And there’s no such thing as a decision that’s made just for our families. In fact, even having the gift of the decision at all means that you’re a person with more choices than some people, and those who don’t have a choice of where they will educate their children will be impacted by your presence, your adult parent presence, not being in the public schools because you’ve chosen to go somewhere else. We can look back in not too recent history on this and see the impact of when a large number of Christian parents decide to opt out of the system and how it impacts those who are left behind. And so I do think it’s very important for us to understand that while, yes, we do what is best for our families, we don’t do so in a vacuum, we understand that what we do for our family always impacts the community around us, and that we should look to the welfare of the city in which we live, and that there are a lot of ways to do that, even if I realize that my kids cannot go into my public schools, and I do know what that looks like. You know I have a brother who lives in a very rural setting, I do know what that looks like. But even if I realize that my own children will not be going to those education spaces, how can I as a person who cares for the widow and the orphan, who cares for the fatherless? How can I be a person who still maintains a giving presence in that space? How do I support the teachers? How do I support the administrators? How can I volunteer in ways that are going to bring life into a system that does serve the last and the least, even if I can’t convictionally Say I can put my own kids there, and then, just in closing, I would urge charity, and I know that these are good faith discussions, not bad faith ones. Just think that this is a good place to be able to just acknowledge that there is a way to follow our convictions for our families and still not have to malign the decisions of others in doing so,

Jen Wilkin

particularly when it comes to public school, I think we’re of the of the public, private or home school options. I think we’re the punching bag right now. There’s no reason that we wouldn’t support teachers who love the Lord, who have stayed convictionally in those spaces. There’s no reason, and yet that’s, you know, they hear things like the hellscape that is the public schools. That’s one of the epithets that I’ve heard thrown out there. And it’s like, well, is that true? Are we saying what’s true? Honest, just pure and lovely when we say that? And so my my my encouragement would be that everyone feels strongly about where they land on this. Everyone, it’s a big decision, and you should, you should feel deep conviction about where you land, but to recognize that there is such thing as a convictional position on public schools for well intentioned Christian parents and and that children can come through the system and not just survive it, but that they can go on to thrive.

Jim Davis

Jen, thank you for that perspective. I appreciate the way you’ve thought through it. I appreciate the charity that you’re offering for people who make a different decision. And you’ve really addressed some, some talking points that you do hear out there that that you’ve thought through really well, so thanks for what you’ve done with your family and telling us about it here. All right, Jonathan, your turn. What’s your perspective on

Jonathan Pennington

this issue? Yeah, thanks. I also come from a family of all teachers. My aunts and uncles, both my parents are teachers. My sister, I have a teaching degree and student talk. Out in the public high schools in Chicago and so. And I really value public education for the same reasons you do in terms of the common good and other things we could talk about more, but we did raise our six children, either homeschooling them or in private school or sometimes a two day week consortium kind of thing. And we would do that again, I think. And there are a number of reasons again that we can we can talk about, but I think before we ask the question of how we’re going to educate our our children as Christian parents, I think we need to ask a more fundamental question, and that is, why, like, what is education? And especially from a Christian perspective, why do we educate our children? And I think when we ask that question first, it’ll help us get a better chance at answering the how we’re going to do it question, and we need to start there. And so I like to sum it all up, actually, with one Greek word, not just because I’m a Greek professor, because it’s a word we don’t really have in English anymore, and it’s the word Paideia, and we have some remnants of that word in like pediatrics and pedagogy. But what Paideia meant, it was this vision that the ancient Greeks and Romans had, that the way to create a good society and the way to create people that flourish is that you need to take people from childishness to maturity or to wholeness through intentionally developing them to love what is true and good and beautiful, and not just to know what is true and good and beautiful, but to actually love it. Because our emotions and our affections drive actually everything we do. They’re a huge part of our ethics. Our emotions actually are and education needs to focus on developing children in training their affections, training their understanding, training their knowledge, in ways that they become whole people, so that again, they can be happy themselves and also contribute to society. Now, ancient Christians adopted this as a category themselves, rightly so, not only for an understanding of what the message of the Bible is, really a theological understanding that God is shaping us and forming us into the image of Christ, taking us from childishness to wholeness. So they adopt it as a as a theological category, but they also adopt it as a way of thinking about how to raise our children. And that really becomes the foundation for all of Western civilization, really, up until the 20th century, this this fundamental idea of shaping people toward the good and the true and the beautiful. Now Christians get this from their Jewish heritage. We’re familiar with Deuteronomy six. Let me just read these verses. Hear O Israel, the LORD our God. The Lord is One Love. The Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, these commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home, when you’re walking along the road, when you lie down, when you get up, tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads, write them on the door frames of your houses and your gates. The idea here in the Hebrew Bible and into Christian understanding as well, is that education is not primarily about learning skills, job skills, or even learning self expression or something like that. The point of education is very clear. It’s development of virtue, and the development of virtue is good for you and good for others as well. And of course, from a Christian perspective, that virtue is oriented in God himself, that we’re learning to imitate God and to be like him, and then training our children through our own model and our teaching to love the good, to love and to love God and to love neighbor as well. So this idea of vision, like I said, has really driven education for Christians forever, but we’re in a dilemma now. We’re in a real dilemma for Christian parents today, because even though up until probably the 20th century public education in the United States would have also spoken that exact same way. In the 20th century, you begin to lose that even in the mid 20th century, people like C S Lewis and Dorothy Sayers are already beginning to or they’re seeing lots of problems, and begin to write about it. And Dorothy Sayers wrote a famous essay about this that really became the foundation for the modern classical school movement. And so already in mid 20th century, they’re seeing that education has lost its bearings, and that it’s not training people for virtue in the true and the good and the beautiful. It’s becoming focused on job skills and self expression only. And if that was true in the mid 20th century, I think how much more now, with all the pressures of of college debt and the the narrowing of knowledge to STEM fields and the focus that, why do you get an education so that you can get a good job, that kind of mindset is, you know, rampant and is really, really dominates education at every level now, and add to that, the difficulties of many moral issues that Christians face, it really puts Christian parents in a huge dilemma. And so while I you know, we chose to homeschool and private school our kids, and while I completely respect and agree that we should. You know, Christian parents need to do what they’re able to do, and if public school is there is their choice, that’s great. I think the key thing is that we need to make sure we’re starting with the question of what actually education is for and why we’re doing it. If you start with that, I think it makes the decision a little bit easier if you have a choice. And again, many, many parents simply do not have a choice. But if you think about education as formative of the person, I think it’s for us, what it meant was we wanted to, you know, be the primary influence. And while I agree with Jen that the home is absolutely central, I know when our kids were little, we were thinking, do we want to be away from them for their waking hours, these eight hours a day that are very formative, as opposed to what we could give them? And we were able to do it. It involved a lot of sacrifices and difficulties, but and we didn’t homeschool forever. We ended up shifting gears at various points, but for us, it was the way to pursue this, this idea of developing people in a certain way. And so that’s why we did that. And I look forward to further discussion.

Jim Davis

Yeah, I love that. Both of you, somewhat providentially, maybe ironically too, you both mentioned flourishing, you mentioned the Sermon on the Mount, stuff that both of you are known for. So my church is actually going through your study right now, and I’ve been reading your excellent commentary. And so when you talk about flourishing and salt and light, I know these are things you’ve thought through a good bit. Well, let’s start out. I would just like to hear a little bit about your stage of life. We know that you have five kids and you have six kids. What kind of stage of life are you in now? How old are they? Just in general, mine are 20 620-524-2422,

Jen Wilkin

and the youngest just graduated from college in May. And so I have my oldest son has finished a PhD and is now working full time and is married and about to have they’re about to have their first child. My daughter is married rather inconveniently, to an Air Force pilot. We’re very proud of him, but they’re very far away right now, and she has one child, and then I have a daughter who is currently in med school down in Houston, and another daughter who is working in social services, and then a son who’s going to go into nursing. So that’s kind of where we ended up. I actually ended up with a lot of STEM influence in my family, and like, they all are very good communicators. Matt has a degree in engineering and a minor in English. I’m like, there it is. Got that English in there? Yeah, yeah. So that’s where they are. And Jeff and I just putter around the house wondering when everyone’s gonna come home. No, that’s not true. We’ve been enjoying, actually enjoying them in their adulthood. Fair number of them live nearby.

Jonathan Pennington

Good, yeah. Thanks so much your family, yeah. So we ours are slightly younger, but some overlap. 26 I was impressed how you did that so quickly. How old are my kids? They keep changing ages. It’s weird, exactly 2625 or something like that. 22 they’re somewhere in there. Down to 1726. To 17, we’ll go with that. And we have two out of college, two that are seniors in college, and one that just started art school. That’s fifth kid. And then we have a senior in high school, so we’re in the we’re in the home stretch, and again, they’ve had different educational experiences throughout but they all live in town, except for the one who just went went away to art school. And we love being together. We spend a lot of time together. And we love adult children, you know. And I can’t wait till grandchildren as well, but yeah, so they’ve they’ve all had different journeys. They study different things and do different things, but ours are mostly in the creative side. And you and I have joked about this before, you know? So we didn’t raise stem kids, we raised Creative Kids, which means we’re all poor and emotionally happy.

Jim Davis

Well, Jen, one thing that Jonathan mentioned was Deuteronomy six, and he, I think he phrased it as eight hours a day. You know, I’ve heard people calculate from K through 12, 15,000 hours, that the children are gone in school. And so I know you agree with Deuteronomy six. You want to see that play out in your heard it before this is the first time you look at Old Testament. So how does, how does that play out in your context, when for those 15,000 hours, some you know, you know what they’re getting. How are you how does Deuteronomy six play out in your home?

Jen Wilkin

Yeah, well, I think what having them in public school did for us was it really drove home the emphasis of the shared time that we did have being vital. And so you heard in the age range of my kids. Are all very close in age. It’s all within a four year range. And so you can imagine, if we had each child even in one activity, that the likelihood we would have family dinners was going to drop significantly, like I remember even when they were one of my shining moments as a ministry parent was in the early years, where we ended up pulling them from the Scripture Memory program that happened on Wednesday nights at the church, because they were getting to bed too late, you know, and it was taking another night out that we had together. And so with our kids, we we put a pretty heavy limitation on extracurricular activities. We said one or none, and some of them did none. And I’ll tell you, counter cultural is when your child doesn’t have an alter identity involved in a sport or a musical instrument or something like that. I did actually controversial, yeah, I would imagine Yeah, and, and that really is, that’s actually kind of one of my hot takes around this, is that a lot of times parents end up giving back even more hours to to these other endeavors that are pulling, not just pulling kids outside of the home for extended periods of time, but where each member of the family sort of develops their own identity around that activity, and their primary place of belonging begins to be in that peer group or that that setting, versus in the home. So we were, we were vigilant about shared time together. And not just it wasn’t just being in in the home together, it was being in the home together, doing things together, right? Because you think about even the way that the typical American home is constructed now is so that we can each have our individual spaces. And so we purposefully stacked them up as roommates in their rooms, and we purposefully had everybody, you know, you weren’t off in your room alone. It was we were all in shared spaces together as much as possible. So we were definitely aware of the time that was being given to the education space, being time that wouldn’t be family time, although another mitigating factor for us was that my kids were essentially a peer group for one another moving through school together, they always had someone right there with them, so whatever was going on in their actual peer group was going to be to some degree they were insulated because they had a peer who was also a best friend right there. That’s really helpful.

Jim Davis

So I’ll put a little bit of my cards on the table. We do. My kids go to a Christian classical school in Orlando. And I actually am something you said is a concern of mine in our context, and it’s the exposure to different socioeconomic classes, different races, different adversities. And so I’m we’re really praying through how do we give our children that exposure that you get very naturally in the public school. What have you all done to that end? Yeah, I feel that

Jonathan Pennington

too, yeah. And I think probably the classical schools especially struggle with that because of the cost of it for a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s probably happened in church more than any other way. However, even then, churches tend to be kind of homogenous as well. So I just acknowledge that that is a disadvantage of a lot of private school and homeschool situations. I don’t know what to say. Beyond that, I share that value as well.

Jim Davis

Yeah, that’s helpful. So one thing that that that we’ve talked about, and one thing that we’ve talked about is that there are polarities on on either side of y’all who are more dogmatic about the decisions that they’ve made, and you obviously extend a lot of charity to each other and other families because of reasons that you’ve stated. What dangers do you see in the hearts of the extremes? And I’ll ask each of you to address the heart on the extreme of your particular side. So I’ve been starting with Jen. I’ll start with you. Jonathan, yeah, I mean, that’s

Jonathan Pennington

really important that, and that was one of the reasons why I was hesitant to have this conversation, not because it wouldn’t go well with Jen, and I’ve been in her home many times, and know her kids, and they’re wonderful, and it

Jim Davis

has been fun to see how well you know each other.

Jonathan Pennington

Yeah, it’s been great. And again, we have many great public school teachers and counselors and others in our church as well. I’m their pastor, and I, you know, I care for them, and there’s no demonization going on at our church at all. But I, you’re right, that is the case and in broader Christian culture. But I, you know, we were very involved in the homeschool movement, especially back in the 90s and early 2000s and I so I’m not involved anymore. But one of the things you definitely see in a lot of that world is a very pull up the drawbridge, us versus them. Throw some holy hand grenades over the money Python reference, throw some holy hand grenades over the over the walls. And in a very hold up us versus them kind of culture, and that is not healthy. It’s not healthy on any side of any spectrum. One of my life principles is that the degree to which our life energy is motivated by things we’re opposed to is the degree to which we’re unhealthy. And that applies on the left and the. Right And and so I’m afraid that a lot of fear mongering happens, and also a lot of fear driven motives are behind a lot of people homeschooling and doing private school. I’m afraid of they’re going to come get our kids or something, and no good decisions come out of fear, no good decisions. So you see, I think you do see us versus them mindset, and it’s probably a reaction to the overuse and this misuse of a salt and light idea. And so a lot of times homeschool people will say, you know, I’m not putting my kids in salt and light, and I agree with you. I think that’s not the best way to think about it. And so we’re going to hole up and protect our kids. And so I think that’s that’s the difficulty. And again, this is where the Paideia idea really applies to whether you have your kids in public school or private school. There are plenty of Christian schools that don’t do Paideia either, like they’re not really shaping they’re seeking to protect and defend and create an us versus them. And I would say that, I would be critical of that approach as well. And so anything that disengages us with culture that doesn’t value the common good and doesn’t seek to create people of virtue, whether it’s in a Christian school or not, is not good. That’s good.

Jen Wilkin

I would say that the probably the potholes on my side fall in two categories. One is, I’m just going to send them and they’ll be fine, like not staying involved in what’s actually happening in that education space, not finding ways to actually be physically present in it, and appropriate ways for parents to be involved. You know, when they were in elementary school, I was going to be the room mom if I could, or at least be one of those moms, so that I could get eyes on who these other kids were that they were interacting with. I think just trusting that the peer group is probably not going to be an issue, because the church youth group is going to make up for whatever. So I think if you’re thinking, Well, I’m going to outsource their education and their Christian formation, that’s a recipe for disaster. But I think the other side too, that is also equally difficult, is the parent who’s like, Nope, we’re on mission here. And I’m going to ask a child who is socially immature to go in with guns blazing and proselytize other students, or I’m going to secretly try to get this public school to be a Christian school. That’s just, you know, acting like it’s a public school, like that’s I’ll hear a lot from parents who will say, Well, it’s a public school, but all the teachers are Christians. And I’m like, Well, I want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers, and then I can parent them through whatever those are. So I don’t want to covertly take over the public schools and make them Christian schools, although I value, you know, the ethics that that would involve being in place in the public schools. But I think that because they’re public schools, they need to serve a general population in a way that a Christian school doesn’t. And so that was always actually a big talking point with the kids. Was like, what is appropriate as someone who is in basically a pluralistic environment? How is it appropriate to weigh into conversations when you do express your opinion? How do you do so that’s respectful to the opinions of others? And I think that sometimes Christian parents can go, go into those settings and sort of have a blunt force trauma event happen when they decide to express where they’re coming from. So yeah, that plays out.

Jonathan Pennington

They might jump in there. Yeah. I mean, I, I agree that the it has to start in the home. And, you know, knowing you and and being in your home, I know you guys have done this well, no crying in math and all that. And it is, what is challenging, I think, is that Christian parents who put their kids in Christian schools could, as you just said, Actually neglect making the home the center as well. And so that’s the irony of it, like you can, again, outsource it all to church. I just want to affirm what you’re saying, that that’s, that’s the challenge, I think, is that you we have to start recognizing that we are responsible. I think part of the trick that I’d like to hear from you about is, what about the single mother, or the parents that have to work a ton of jobs and they and or for mental health reasons, 1000 reasons they aren’t able to give that kind of energy to the home and focus with central spaces. There are million reasons why it may not happen in that scenario. Doesn’t it seem that maybe Christian school would be a far better option, because if you can’t do the other very well, at least getting some help on the formative side. I’m just curious how you think

Jen Wilkin

about that. I mean, frankly, my question would be, how are we supposed to pay for that? I mean, the financial implications of Christian School are staggering, and so I ask, are Christian parents going into debt over this? Is that? Yeah, right, you know, I mean, like, that’s a conversation for families to have among themselves. I would never just say, you know, you should never, ever do that. But for us, you know, $35,000 a year for that many children over that many years, I can’t even imagine how we would have done that. And so while I do think Christian School is is well suited for some families, I think of the other single moms and parents where both parents are working who that’s not even on the table for them. And then how do I make sure? Because it’s good for all of us if those families also thrive. And so being present in the public schools is a way to ask a question, which someone posed to me recently, that that was a thought provoking question, whose children deserve a bad education, is what this person asked. Well, I think we would all say, no ones. No ones do. And so then it reframes for me, gosh, I’m going to try with everything that I can to make sure that not just my own children are thriving, but that the children in my community, in my area of influence, are thriving as well. So, you know, I honestly, my my exposure to the Christian schools that I know of is not overly positive. I think when you’re charging a premium to educate children, you have a vested interest in trumpeting the value of what you’re doing in a way that doesn’t always translate into outcomes. I’m not saying that’s the way every Christian School is. My daughter actually had an overwhelmingly positive experience in a Christian school that was that didn’t, didn’t come out of desegregation. You know, it was just a really sweet place to teach, and it was good for me to see that positive expression of Christian education, because my mother had taught in Christian schools and had a negative experience. I had some baggage. So I do know it can be a great environment for kids, but it’s never going to be a widespread solution for people, just due to the necessary expense that it requires.

Jim Davis

So both of you have obviously given freedom to make other decisions. You’ve talked about the variety of factors. You live in a world class School District, you have a family situation that is conducive for the educational choices that you’ve chosen. What would be factors if you were to do it again that would have caused you to make the opposite decision?

Jen Wilkin

That’s a great question I’ve asked this having, you know, I have family living in all all different areas of the country, and they face very different considerations in this, as I mentioned, the education piece for us was not hard question to answer. If I thought they would not actually be able to receive an education in the public schools, then I would absolutely have done what I could to home school. I don’t know that I would have gone the Christian school route because of the baggage I had around it at the point that my children were of education age. Who knows if there would have been a homicide if I had actually homeschooled my kids? Well, the world will never know but, but I do know that there are public school situations that are untenable to put your children into. And I would still say I would have hoped we, I imagine we would have still tried to support the public schools. I hope we would have convictionally, even if we couldn’t put our own children in them. It was interesting some of the the teachers that DMed me in the in the Instagram story situation, several of them said I couldn’t put my own children in but I’m teaching in the school system because I want it to be better for my neighbors. I hope that would have been a position that I could have maintained if we had found ourselves living somewhere where public school was not an option.

Jonathan Pennington

I mean, don’t you feel the dilemma of that though? I mean, and again, I respect that as well, but I mean, it seems like that kind of undercuts the vision, like, in the sense of, if you wouldn’t put your own kids in it, how can you be engaged in a positive way? Still, I guess that’s, that’s one way to frame lots of ways.

Jim Davis

I mean, I think that’s a really good practical question.

Jen Wilkin

Yeah, I think there are lots of ways. You can still go to school board meetings. You can still volunteer in the public schools. There’s mentoring programs. You can be supportive of the teachers who are in the trenches. When you think about what public school teachers represent in this country, they’re often the they’re on the front lines of You know, when a child reports, they’re the first their mandatory report on all the CPS concerns. The function that they perform in our society is valuable, and for them to be unsupported is unthinkable to me, and so even if my own children were not able to be in that education space, I would. Want to do everything within my power to support it and improve it. Because, you know, there have been a lot of studies done on the impact on a school, if there are just even two involved adults who will take interest in what’s happening, who are not on staff, and the impact that that has on a public school and a community. And so it just feels like a really easy local missions effort that’s right in front of us all the time.

Jim Davis

All right, you have to answer the same question, yeah.

Jonathan Pennington

So the question again being like,

Jim Davis

what would if, what would be if you went back, what would be circumstances in which you could imagine yourself sending your

Jonathan Pennington

children to public school? Yeah. I mean, the financial part has been difficult for us. It really has and and homeschooling made that, you know, easier, even though there’s costs in that involved in sort of buying your own curriculum, and we’re still paying taxes, you know, and everything. But yeah, private school has been, it has been a challenge on the financial side. So I really feel that, and I’m aware that most people do that. So if that that makes me, you know, have some pause at moments like, was this the best thing to go? Kind of feels like backwards financially for 15 years or 20 years. But I think for us, the public education system, where we’ve been in for the last 18 years, I would not be comfortable putting our kids in for a number of reasons. And and it feels like it’s worse, you know, if we’re just getting older, but it feels like,

Jen Wilkin

Yeah, I mean, the social risk is a component as well.

Jonathan Pennington

Yeah, addressed. I mean, like our kids are, you know, 18 to 30 kind of thing. But you think if I had a, and people ask me this all the time too. I had a pastor text me the other day, you know, we have a, you know, whatever it is, kindergartner and below, and we want to be a good witness, we want to be engaged in society. But I’m really concerned. And I had to say, it does seem that many of the things going on, not everything you hear is true, but many of the things going on in public education, in terms of some moral issues, feel more extreme than they did even when our kids were little. I don’t think that’s just in our minds. I think there have been social changes in a significant way and and so, I think for us. But I guess I need to answer your question. Sorry, I think I would. I think the money if we would have had a better, more comfortable public education system, maybe in a smaller town or something where I was more involved, could have been more involved. I think the financial combination with that would have made us more open to public schooling, although when the kids were really little, homeschooling was so great because our life was more integrated, like we weren’t controlled by a schedule outside of ourselves in terms of trips and and then years are probably this way too. I mean, our older kids were very young readers. You know, they were reading at four, etc, because we worked with them, and it felt like there was a lot of wasted time in any kind of schooling system. I mean, Christian or public in those early years especially, and it was really just a sweet time to be with them and and really shape them, and with a lot of freedom that we had to just do our own thing, you know, maybe that sounds selfish or something, but it was, it was really a wonderful time. And so I would not want to give that up, you know. But it

Jim Davis

is interesting. Neither of you mentioned safety, and so with the public school shootings that we read about, is that a is that a factor in the decision at all?

Jen Wilkin

Well, that was all on the table already for my kids. And so I think, yeah, I think part of this conversation, and this relates to the fear based decision is to have an assumption that there’s such an such a thing as a safe place to raise your kids. There are always dangers and there are always benefits, there’s always a risk and always a reward. And if we perceive only reward, then we probably haven’t thought about it enough, and if we perceive only risk, then we probably haven’t thought about it enough. And we we understood the the risks and the rewards of where we were placing our kids in our community at the time that they were going through as far as to the best of our ability. And so, yeah, I mean, there you give a 16 year old a car to drive, you know, and it’s risky. So I think things like gun violence, where it’s, you know, I can’t control that. But then there were all of these other risks that were associated with, you know, like the kids who were in some of the Christian schools in the area, where the kids that actually had a terrible, traumatic thing happen in public school ended up going into that space. And then, you know, you have a peer group of your whole class size is 20 people, and so if it’s toxic, there’s nowhere to go, you know, whereas in the public school, you know, if your peer group is terrible, you can find another one, because you’re graduating with a class of 1000 students. You. In our in our case, and so, you know, there are risks to being in a bigger school. There are also rewards. There are risks to being in a Christian school. There are also rewards. Home school situation, you know, I know Jonathan would never say that every home school scenario is ideal in the same way that I would not, you know, it’s, you know, in some cases, it’s like, wow, that’s really terrible. Someone should intervene, you know, but there’s not eyes on the situation in the way that there are in other settings. And so again, so much of it comes down to not Where are you going to educate your kids, but what kind of a parent are you going to be? Are you going to be a parent who is vigilant in the best ways and then open handed in all of the best ways, too. And so risk is always going to be something that you have to weigh, and people reach different conclusions, which is why we have this conversation today. But we all, I, you know, we all want to be motivated out of love and not fear, love for our children, but also with an eye toward what can go wrong. Sure.

Jim Davis

Do you have anything to say on that?

Jonathan Pennington

No, I Yeah. I just agree that. And bad stuff happens in Christian schools as well, and in homeschooling situations, bad things happen too. Yeah. So I agree with that, if I might pivot a little bit, just one of the things I was thinking more about when we enjoyed homeschooling, which we did stop doing, because it did become untenable with our 300 children, it felt like and various things, but one of the things that I did love about it as well is that it enabled us to truly focus on each child’s development in a distinct way. And I feel the tension because I do believe in the common good public education, all the things we agree with, but it was also really wonderful to be able to identify gifts and talents and not just a cookie cutter way, and to really help children develop. So our fifth kid, for example. You know, most kids draw a lot, but we could tell there was something different about his ability. My mom was a painter. My wife’s a professional artist as well. So he kind of got the double gene of it, I think. And we were able, from a young age to start giving him private art lessons. And now he’s, you know, going into oil painting portraiture, you know, in this high end kind of thing that could not have happened in a in a public education system, just in the sense of, like it would be one class of many, and or be some super extracurricular thing that would just add to the stress of life. And so that’s one of the things that we really loved about, about the kind of the ability to focus on the development of each individual child, not in a kind of cookie cutter way. I feel the tension again, of that versus the common good and in that. But just was coming to mind as I was reflecting back on those early years of homeschooling and how much we enjoyed it. And several all of our kids are musicians, and they were able to spend a lot of time practicing their instruments. Our one thing is that our 16 year olds, once they got that we were our deal was you need to start working a job. And for those that were doing like two day week school, which they were at that time, they worked jobs, and that was a way that they were certainly connected to the broader world and exposed. And actually they worked quite a bit and saved a lot of money for college. The older kids did because they had the freedom in their schedule to go to school and get their schoolwork done. They did all their school work, but actually work in the workplace. That was a really nice situation for them that developed, and a lot of bad stuff happened. You know, they worked at McDonald’s and McAllister, so in terms of, like, I mean, they learned it was crazy. But again, those are just some of the ways that I would also argue for the good of if you have the choice, which most people there many people don’t. But if you have the choice, the ways that you can really develop individual children to be who God’s called them to be, and then to use those particular gifts and abilities to bless the world. You know, that’s how the vision we imperfectly, you know, tried to cast for them. So he, I didn’t

Jim Davis

know if you wanna respond, he brought up focusing on developing certain talents and working you want to respond to that anti

Unknown Speaker

extracurricular person? Yeah, I feel like we were

Jen Wilkin

able to do that as well. I think when you see that a child has a has a has a skill or a talent that is an outlier. Now the problem is, is like organized sports is telling every parent that their child has a skill that’s an outlier, or whatever it is. But again, we had a ton of time together. You know, we have a we have a pianist in the family who’s who’s really, really good. You know, we have a child who’s fluent in Spanish. So I don’t think it’s off the table to do that again. It’s what it’s How present are you in the life of your child? And then for us, it was like the job thing is interesting to me, because we really did not pressure the kids. I’m not saying you pressured your kids, but we didn’t press our kids toward you need to go get a job because. And they would come home, especially in high school, they would come home from school, and they spent every minute from the time they got home until they went to bed doing school work. Now, a lot of times that was us involved in that, you know, but there is a time element. There is that is something that is a is a trade in this that isn’t mitigated entirely. There’s a lot

Jonathan Pennington

of wasted time in school. I mean, Christian schools too. I mean, in any kind of formal education, it seems like there’s a lot of wasted time. There’s a lot of time spent in classroom management that is not about education, et cetera. And you know, again, I feel the tension of the goods that come from it. But if you’re talking from a purely educational standpoint, I don’t know, especially at the younger years, there’s a lot, a lot you can do. Like our kids, one of the things we saw with our older kids is that, because they were originally homeschooled and then two day week consortium kind of situation, they were so ready for college because they had learned to be independent learners, like they learned they needed to get their work done, they needed to manage their schedules, and they were able to work jobs as they did it. So just it felt like it really helped them enter into adulthood, and like when they got to college, they were used to managing their time, and they’re used to working jobs and doing all that stuff. So I’m not saying that’s the only way it can happen, but for us, that was a that worked well for training them in kind of adult skills and adult work life balance?

Jen Wilkin

Yeah, I think I view what you what you’re calling wasted time, as time to study human nature, because you get out into the workplace, and guess what? That’s what you’re dealing with a lot. It’s like the never ending group project. And so I would say that what our kids learned was, was that whole scenario of like, Oh, I’m going to do pretty much the whole group project, because you don’t care. There were a lot of kids who did not care about their educational environment and didn’t have parents who were going to help them to care. And so again, there were a lot of really helpful counterpoints. And my kids transitioned pretty seamlessly from a large high school to a, you know, to a University of 50,000 undergraduates, and they had all the skills they needed, from a study skills perspective, to get through it. So I do think again, I think it goes back to what kind of a parent do you intend to be? Children can can learn children can learn virtue either through a formalized presentation of it in their education sphere, or they can learn it through the way that they’re interacting with one another at home, through parents who are thinking toward that. So yeah,

Jim Davis

that’s good. Well, speaking of time management, we’re running out. Let me finish by asking briefly, what is the most compelling part of your opponent’s argument? We’ll start with you.

Jonathan Pennington

Yeah, I’m very sympathetic, and I think especially the idea of still being deeply involved in the community. And related to that, what you said about not just making choices that are for my family, you know, which is, I think so easy to default to that, and I’m sure I’ve been guilty of that as well. I’m sure I even have said that phrase at some point. And so I really appreciate that and value what you’re saying about the I’ve got to think about more than my family got to think about how my family can and should contribute to larger goods. So really appreciate that.

Jen Wilkin

Yeah, I think the time piece, because I love, I love the time with it. You know, I’ve joked with Jonathan, it’s not a joke that I just want them to all live on the same block and we can all do, you know, I’m like, I get other cultures do that, and I know why. And there is that I remember when the year between Matt’s kindergarten and Mary Kate’s kindergarten, the state of Texas changed kindergarten from half day to full day. And I was so sad, you know, I was like, the state took my children from me, you know, I’m sure I was super dramatic about it. But there is that, I mean, you do like I remember just missing them, you know, at the beginning of each school year, and then you hit a rhythm, and you you try to recapture what time you can. And I do think that we did recapture or, or hold on to really good time spaces for people who had chosen public education. But He’s not wrong. Home school gives you a lot of time with your kids, and that’s precious time, and I know some of our favorite people were homeschooled as kids like they’re not you know, all the stereotypes that you might have heard 20 years ago or whatever, they’re just not true. Really well grounded and well formed kids can come out of a homeschool space, and I cannot deny that, and have no wish to. But yeah, it’s the time. It’s that sweet time piece.

Jim Davis

Well, thank you both for joining us, for leaving your families to come here and participate in this. I really do appreciate. Both. I appreciate the way you have made your decisions you’ve made them wanting to honor God, honor your family, honor the values that you teach in the Sermon on the Mount. And so thank you for living authentically in that way, and thank you for joining us in this good faith debate. We hope that has been helpful. We hope the time that you have spent watching it is fruitful, and we hope that the Lord is going to use that for some practical next steps in your wading through this very complex conversation.